SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome to Beyond the Beacon with Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson, New Jersey. Join us for conversations about our Catholic faith, and together let's strive to live a life of faith, hope, and love. Jay Agner, Communications Director for the Diocese. With me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney. Bishop Kevin, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:26

I'm good, Jay. How are you? Good to see you. I'm doing well. Thanks. We're doing something remote, a little different this time. Uh yeah, a little different. Great to see you.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Yes, it's great to see you too. Thank you for doing it this way. I'm a little under the weather. I don't want to get anyone sick. And um so yeah, so we're we're um we're gonna do another uh segment of our good news workshop segment, which is um, if you recall a few weeks back we interviewed Joe Geely. Um so this is uh a segment that we're gonna do from time to time.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Um where we an interview you're excited about.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Yes, I'm quite excited about. So we um so here in the diocese and across the Catholic landscape, we're seeing a spike in flyers and other artwork that's created using artificial intelligence, and it's not always a pretty site. Just when I started to reflect on this trend and did some writing of my own about what's known as AI slop or poorly made uh artificial intelligence flyers.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Well, the good, the bad, and the ugly? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

So then I'm writing and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna along came this really brilliant article last week written by uh an author in America magazine who uh who I had a chance to reach out to and agreed to be interviewed, Angelo Canto, who is gonna be featured in in uh the good news workshop of the portion of our podcast today. So just a little bit about uh Angelo. He's an artist who who's created illustrations for Catholic churches, and so he he approaches the argument. Uh the his article is entitled The Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

I enjoyed I enjoyed the article. He did a great job. And uh that image that he created of the Blessed Mother, um, you know, uh certainly thought-provoking.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, or actually he used it in his article. Right, it's called The Catholic Case Against AIR, and it tackles the this topic that it's really come to the forefront of of how we make our flyers and videos and on on social media and in our church uh you know bulletins. And so um thank you for uh for letting us do this this week. He so Angelo, he's he's actually the director of campus ministry over at St. Peter's in Jersey City. Oh wow, yeah. And I did ask him, I'm like, hey, were you there for the big you know sweet 16 run for the for the men's basketball? And he he was not there at the time, but he he's a Loyola graduate, so uh you know, so he's a fan of Loyola up in Chicago.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Chicago, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Yeah. And uh yeah, so it was a great interview. It it offers a really good perspective on on why we don't need to be rushing to use AI to create flyers, and it's also a larger conversation about art and remaining human. And we refer to Magnifica uh Humanitas.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Humanitas.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, and we discuss how Pope Leo's really been a supporter of artists, and he actually says the church needs artists, and the church wishes to renew its alliance with artists and cultural institutions. So I think people are gonna enjoy this interview, and it just it's comes at a really uh important time for us as a diocese, and I think for the larger Catholic uh culture, communications culture. But before we get into that, we want to give you some time, Bishop, and to catch up a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Um so speaking of America Media, shout out to our friends at Jesuitical their um uh episode this week. Uh they've changed their format, I think, a little bit, but it's uh uh a Signs of the Times episode. So they talked about um uh they talked about Pope Leo voting, uh, which first time I think uh had an interesting conversation about that. Uh then they had a uh a topic about a conversation about some of my brother bishops who visited the White House and uh the generated some comments, certainly. Um and then um uh they closed with the new um uh Vatican uh head of the Dekastri of Communications, Monse Alvarado from uh um EWTA. So um as usual, they um uh it's a great, great conversation. Uh that they do they do such a great job. So maybe we can put a link uh in the show notes. Uh but um I'm also um uh really glad that you were able to have the interview and uh share the article with me. Uh his name again? And Angelo Canto. He's he's uh formation to become a cat. And yeah, I guess you'll be able to link to the article, right, as well?

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah, yeah, we'll have a link to the article to his uh Instagram account as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

He's a he's a really good artist as well. Um we um we I was at the Tri County Gala um this past Monday. Yes, congratulations on being recognized. So, anybody listening, hopefully everyone's contacting Governor Cheryl's office to encourage her to opt in on the federal um tuition uh uh tax credits for uh for scholarships. Um uh check out the Tri-County website, our own website for more information there. But um the governor of New York um who was just re-elected, uh uh Governor Hokel uh signed uh opted in there. So um we're waiting to hear from Governor Shapiro, but hopefully we're praying. And we encourage people to contact Governor Sherrill's office to um encourage her to the this uh not going into all the details here, but um uh $1,700 um tax credit and $3,400 for couples. Instead of giving that money to the government, uh the IRS, you could give it to a scholarship granting organization. Um it could really help our Catholic schools and families who right now struggle to afford a Catholic uh be able to pay tuition at a Catholic school with these um grants that uh through scholarship organizations like scholarship granting organizations like Tri-County um would be able to receive help. So um something very, very important right now. And um uh again, maybe we can put a link to that as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yeah, yeah, we'll just put a link to that. And I know you've been a you've been a big supporter of Catholic schools, Bishop, and I know Tri-County pointed that out at at the I saw the video that they made uh in a tribute to you, and I thought it was so moving, and we're gonna we're we're gonna be able to share that on our uh social media accounts. So I'm grateful to uh prudence and tri-county over there and all the folks, Mike and everyone helping out over there. But uh so um it's still National Vocations Week. We still have a couple of days. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

What a great um column. Wonderful, as I wrote, yes, uh wonderful celebration. Uh on All Saints Day at the Cathedral for Couples Married 25, 50, 60, and we had a couple married 70 years. Amazing, God bless them, uh, and and seem to be doing very, very well. So uh uh thanks to uh Annie Hansberger, Mr. Annie Hansberger, the head of our uh Dawson Office of Marriage and Family Life, um does a great job with the team at St. Paul's, uh our vicar for evangelization, Father Pavel Tomchak and the team at St. Paul's Inside the Walls um really did a great job, and it was a great um and so appropriate um to to have it all on all Saints Day in the sense of that and National Vocation Awareness Week beginning, uh, that we're all called to holiness, that we're not uh necessarily saints, uh, but we're we're we're working on it. And uh um and uh so um the universal call to holiness, I think. Right, right. Um and then um we'll have a project, Andrew, uh tomorrow night, Friday evening, um at Pope excuse me, St. Padre P.O. Parish in Patterson. That's a lot of letters P's, but alliteration, I guess. But uh uh so um Father Charlana um and Catalina and do a great job in our vocations office and our priests and pastors encouraging young men to be open to the call to priesthood. And then uh this coming Sunday, um Audacin Youth Day, uh at St. Elizabeth University. I think if you're listening on Friday or Saturday, there's still you can still register. Um and uh but we have I think close to 200 young people scheduled to attend, and um Jonathan Camarata, um Audasin, director of youth ministry, who was with us uh recently uh um on a on a podcast uh looking forward to that day uh to kind of cap off uh Vocation Awareness Week. So um and then um a few things uh next week uh and then actually a week from tomorrow, Friday the 13th, uh well we have uh um uh a mass on that morning um where we have a priest coming from the Christian Catholic community in um in in the West Bank. In the West Bank, right. Um Father Bashar. Uh he's gonna be at St. Vincent de Martyr Parish. So um looking forward to meeting him and uh hearing some of his experiences. We pray for you know our brothers and sisters who are in need, um and and Christian communities that are struggling, um, so um, especially in the Holy Land. Um but then uh that afternoon I'll be heading to Baltimore for the annual um or semi-annual, I guess, uh meeting of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. Um uh I'm on a committee for the church in Latin America and uh that meeting on Saturday, and then Sunday evening, Monday, the the meeting will start until the following Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Did you get all your homework done?

SPEAKER_03 9:46

No, no, I still got some work to do, yes. Uh we're keeping busy, Bishop.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, and then we don't forget there's still uh the holy uh vocation holy hours, which are are going on as well throughout. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yes, yes, yes, right. Right all through this week. In your column, you share the fly, we share the flyer uh for the remaining holy hours.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

So thanks to our pastors and parishes who are promoting vocations, doing a great job.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah, and you being a former vocations director, and I know vocation is a big part of your leadership here in the diocese. What how how is how's vocations going overall?

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Thank God. We're doing well. Um, our seminarians, I think we have about uh 13 or 14 seminarians at the moment. Um uh Bishop Barron was recently referring to the pro-padutic year, not so easy to spell, but uh a new development in seminary formation that guys um entering the seminary for their first year spend kind of what in religious life might be called an ovitiate year or preparation year. Um, and they are without their phones and devices um for I think six and a half days a week or so. Uh and uh we thought it would be you know maybe a barrier, guys would not be happy about it, but they they love it. They they love it. So um, so that's this is about the third year that we've been having that propodudic year, and uh it seems to be a real good experience to help guys prepare to enter into seminary formation.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Now we just have to wean people off AI. All right. Well, anything else you want to share before we go into the interview?

SPEAKER_03 11:24

Um I think I mentioned last time I just finished reading a new biography on Pope Leo, American Pope, by two authors. Uh stay tuned for more information on that. But it's uh it's it's very, very well done.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I I have a book I need to give you from uh pass along to you. Um all right. Well, well, thanks, Bishop. Um for your time. And uh we're gonna be right back next week with another episode at our Father English Food Pantry. Looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

That's right. Yes, yes, yes. Looking forward to that very much. Yeah. Um and um I'm also looking forward to uh hearing and listening to this interview, which I haven't seen myself yet as well. So uh thanks. I'm really glad uh you're able to get that done. And um, and uh we'll um maybe take a moment to say a prayer um as we um thank our viewers and listeners um for tuning in, but also for um living their own lives of faith and uh remembering that we have are all called to holiness. So um Mary, our blessed mother, is uh the model of holiness and discipleship um and saying yes to God's will. So let us uh ask her intercession as we pray, and we'll place ourselves in God's presence in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. We ask the help and intercession of Mary, our blessed mother, as we discern the Lord's will day by day. We strive to know his will and like Mary, always say yes to his will, to God's will. And we pray especially for an openness in our young people to God's call, whether it be to the single life, married life, priesthood, or consecrated religious life, as we pray especially for an increase in vocations to priesthood and consecrated religious life. Let us ask the help and intercession of Mary, our blessed mother, as we pray. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Amen. Our Lady, seed of wisdom, mother of the church, queen of all saints, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Pray for us. All holy men and women, pray for us in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. And God bless Jay on his birthday. I forgot, I almost forgot. Jay, happy birthday, I think tomorrow, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yes, tomorrow. The big 5-0 tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

God bless you, God bless you, and many, many more. 50 years young.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

Thanks, every. I hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah, I'm I'm excited for my birthday. It's uh yeah, all uphill from here.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

All up from here on there. God bless Jay. Happy birthday. Enjoy tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Thank you. Okay, great. And let's go to that interview with Angelo Canto now. Enjoy. Okay, so welcome, Angelo Canta, to the Good News Workshop segment of Beyond the Beacon. It's so nice to have you on. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

I'm doing really well. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

So uh just a quick intro for you. Well, first I should say so. The Good News Workshop is um it's a segment of Beyond the Beacon in which we highlight uh artists, communicators, uh, so that we can we can be inspired, educated, and uh and and be the best communicators and uh that we that we can in our parishes and our schools and our diocese and and beyond. And uh it's also I'm realizing a celebration of of artists, and uh which I think was needed more and more and more nowadays, and we'll we'll get into that in a moment, but I want to introduce you. So you're born in the Philippines. That's right. You uh raised in Burton County, just uh one county from from where I am right now in Passaic here. Um and you're the campus minister at St. Peter's University in Jersey City. Yes. Jesuit scholastic in formation for ordination as a Catholic priest. You became a Jesuit in 2020, and you've done some really uh interesting work uh ministering to people in hospitals, hospice care centers, homes for people with intellectual disabilities, parishes, migrant shelters, uh really cool stuff. And um also for the purposes of our interview, you are also an artist and uh an illustrator and a really good writer, and you are the author of an article that was just released on October 29th on America Media entitled The Catholic Case Against AI Art. Thanks again for being on.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Thanks. It's um it's a it's a great joy to be around. I think of all of the of all of those things, I think the most important pieces are that I am a Jesuit and that I am an artist and that I work primarily with college students. It's a great joy of mine.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Awesome. Yeah. So uh how long have you been in at uh St. Peter's?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

This is I'm just on my second year here. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

So you were not you were not there when they had the big run to the Suite 16, the basketball store?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Oh, but that's sort of when they got on my radar, I think. So I think that was, yeah, just a few years ago. Uh of course, my my allegiance is to Loyala Chicago, and they had a a nice run in the NCAA a few years ago, 2018, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Um and so ever since then I've been like, okay, what Jesuit school is gonna is gonna kind of Cinderella story their way to the top?

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Nice. All right, good. So um so we in the Diocese of Patterson here have been, you know, been we've been seeing an uptick in AI produced flyers and videos. And uh I've I've been um really trying to reflect on um how to kind of grapple with some some of this artwork that's maybe not so good, that's that's that's good. And um I just thought your article came out at just the perfect time um for where we're at here now. Um like I said, as a as a as a church, but also specifically to us here in the Diocese of Patterson. I thought it was great. I'm sure I'm not alone, I'm sure there's many other Catholic communications folks and artists who uh who have and I've seen in the comments, you know, really had a great response to your article. I wonder if you can just kind of start with telling telling us like what inspired uh your desire to to write the article. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

So so this article that came out, uh, as you mentioned, the Catholic case against AI art, uh it comes out of a um kind of I guess like a not exactly a tradition, but a couple years ago I wrote for America um like how to make sure that your church bulletin isn't ugly. Like that was the kind of the kind of idea. And it it it was funny because because I mostly wrote it as like I keep seeing the same kind of um bad design in these church bulletins, and it could be more effective if we just understood some design principles. So I wrote that and and um then a few years later I noticed that uh the issue wasn't the same thing. It wasn't that things were badly designed, is that they were artificially designed. And so when I'm coming to church on a Sunday, when I'm visiting a church website, I'm I'm noticing so much more and more the you know, like the church logo, and I'm putting that in square scare quotes, is so clearly designed by ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini. Or um maybe it's the patron saint feast, and rather than choosing a an image maybe of the saint from the uh from the parish itself, they'll post you know a kind of weird, kind of uncanny version that was made by AI. And so I thought of I thought of uh myself as a kind of like, okay, if I was advocating a few years ago for better design principles, today I want to advocate for human design principles. And and kind of saying, like, forget everything I said before, like let's just get back to like human beings doing it and and and even designing quite badly, we might say, or or not in a in a um in a way that maybe professional designers would. And so it was really coming out this this article comes out of my own experience of seeing um I think there's the sad reality of uh Catholic churches and organizations and even my own province as a Jesuit using AI as a crutch rather than um kind of engaging with the tradition of art that we already have. And then maybe personally as an artist, I'm like, wow, this is this is coming for my the thing that I love, you know. Um this is coming for the thing that gives me joy, the thing that I find purpose in, the thing in in many ways, in um art is the way that um I was introduced to the faith. And so so I keep thinking about what it would be like to lose the sense of um humanity, and if everything that we do is just sort of artificially created art, how how much more likely would it be to evangelize? And in fact, I would say probably that it it it hurts our mission of evangelization, which I say in the article.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

So yeah, that was very well, very well said, thank you. And um so I guess where I would like to focus some of the conversation is well, first of all, I'm I'm so intrigued. So you said art brought you to the faith. Can you can you elaborate on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Sure, yeah. Um so I mean, I I grew up Catholic, I I was baptized as a as a baby, and so in many ways, I you know, my my my family and and a very um Filipino Catholic family. We were uh so much of our home life and and church life was surrounded by devotional art. Um uh my parents had a particular devotion to Our Lady. They love we had images of the sacred heart that were sort of hand-carved um by artisans in the Philippines and that given to my parents as wedding presents. And so there's those that was the world I lived in. Then when I got to college, um uh I entered or I applied to college as a physics major and quickly found it wasn't for me. And I in in searching in freshman year um for what I was kind of wanting to dedicate my studies to, I took a class with a A Jesuit on the sacraments. And he was so interesting because rather than kind of give like a um like okay, let's talk about confirmation and the theology of confirmation, for each of the seven sacraments, he we first had an experience of art. So um for the sacrament of anointing of the sick, for example, uh we watched a play. We read and then watched a play. Um we we investigated different paintings when we were talking about baptism. And so this was a class that that I think was right, was perfectly placed at the transition between kind of this childhood faith that I had and then the adult faith that I was coming into. And at it was coming at the right moment for me to consider what I wanted to do with my life. And so I came into theology as a discipline and really an adult faith by saying, Oh, I have something to say to this. I don't, it's not just that I have to um learn all this new theology, it's that actually I I have come from a world in which the theology was taught to us already through devotional art.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

I love that. I want to I want to take that class. Uh so uh All right. So then when we talk about so it's tough, right? Because you think I think about you know, a parish pastor or someone who's working on a parish social media account, and you know, maybe they don't have the design skills that that that you have or or you know, a professional design artist illustrator has, and and they, you know, they simply want to promote their their event, you know, and so they turn to AI to quickly make a flyer. And and you know, on the surface, it it sounds super helpful and it's easy, but but beyond you know that that act of using AI to do that for you, um, there there is downstream consequences, right? And maybe, maybe we could get into some of those, the impact that it has on artists, and of course, um Poplio in his encyclical uh Magnifica Humanitas talks about even it goes way beyond that and affects uh poor communities and and um you know the whole data centers and all this. But for the sake of this, why don't we stick with with artists, I guess. But um what's what's your what would be your response to that?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah. I um I have a lot of respect and deep admiration for those who are uh doing the day-to-day work and ministry of the church. In my job today, I I get to see firsthand what it's like to to have to run programming and to advertise and to make sure that um the food shows up on time. So I when I say that the church should look very seriously at whether or not to use AI in its uh advertising and its communications, I'm not saying it from this kind of ivory tower place. I'm saying it from from the ground and and realizing that it is in fact very tempting. And it is very tempting to say, um, okay, can AI just make me a flyer for this because I don't have time. And my argument is not that we need to somehow make more time, but that what seems like a convenience or what seems like it's free and doesn't and doesn't uh isn't hurting anybody that being AI actually does have real consequences, not only for the artists that are not getting hired to do the kind of design that um and communications that that we want to see, but also I think it hurts the image of the church. Um I work every day with young people between 18 and 24, uh and they are so good, I mean, uh incredibly good at noticing what is made with AI. And they I think are um we might we might describe them as kind of AI native. Okay. And so I it's it's true when they are looking for restaurants to eat at, it's true when they're when they're uh receiving news sources. When they say say AI, C AI made images, there's a level of doubt that um and suspicion that comes into their engagement with these kinds of things. And unfortunately, that's also true of our churches. When an AI flyer comes out, um, I saw one recently uh uh for the blessing of pets um on the East of St. Francis. To a certain group of people, it might say, Oh, it looks very cute and nice. To another group of people, particularly the young people that I work with, they say, Oh, this is not an event worth going to because they used AI to create the flyer. Wow. And so I think that's the kind of reality that that that I want people to know, where like the cost is not born perhaps up front, but the cost is born later. Um, and that's why I say in the article that that AI really does hurt our evangelization. Because if we're saying we don't have um we are not investing our time and our resources into artists, into designers, into communicators, then the people who uh in some way we're competing for their attention are gonna look for what is more authentic, what is more human.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

So people can tell the difference between human-made art and AI. What what's the difference? Like what makes art human or or what are some what are some of the characteristics of of art that are that is made by humans that can only be made by humans? Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Well, I think at some level your question is asking the like aesthetic differences, like what are the things that my students, for example, are picking up on, or what what even even my sense, I'm like, what am I picking up on uh when I can tell the difference between something that was probably made by AI, we can't really know unless it's disclosed by the person, um, versus not. And I think what I am seeing is it's kind of the difference for me between like junk food and a real meal, like a nutritious meal. On the on the surface of AI images, it seems like it has all of the right components, right? It gives you the text, it gives you, it gives you the images. But if you look at it closely, and especially if you're looking at a lot of AI-generated images, you'll notice certain kind of design cliches that come out. Maybe everything skews a little bit warmer because AI was taught that warmer imagery gets people to do, to, to engage better, right? So things will skew a little bit to on uncertain colors, right? You'll notice that there are there are certain ways in which like the hands and the eyes are all copies of each other because AI at the beginning had very difficult had a lot of difficulty replicating human eyes and human hands. So it got very good at it and then it kept doing exactly the same thing. But aside from the aesthetic qualities, aside from the superficial qualities, I think what is the difference between human-made art and AI-made imagery is uh soul. And um the I interviewed in the article Father Eric Stuart, who's a good friend. He's a um a professor of uh aesthetic philosophy, philosoph the philosophy of visual the visual world in which we live. Um and he talked about how particularly sacred art, art that comes out of a religious tradition, art that comes out of our Christian and Catholic tradition, is made by people who are hurting or who are joyful or who are um working through the mysteries and difficulties and and successes of life. And you can it's not so much that you can see it, but that you can appreciate that a process was done in order to create this. And I'm not saying that I'm not what I'm not describing is the difference between like somebody who's an amateur and somebody who's a professional. I'm not saying that we only need to do the incredibly professional work. We can see this in amateur artists, that there's this longing for or this yearning for a kind of communication of something that is internal or something that that the world is experiencing, um, and putting it onto paper or putting it onto a screen or taking a photograph or making a film. Um and that's what is missing in AI is the soul which comes from a human being engaging creatively in in the work uh and and from the Christian perspective, engaging in in co-creation with God the Father.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

That's beautiful. Yeah, you know, and I think of for me as an artist, uh what if with music, I mean, my when I'm in the studio creating music, that's one of the most joyful places I can be. You know, like the the output, the song, you know, it's great, but it's the the process that brings me fulfillment and joy. And and uh And you mentioned you were very honest in your article about how you know when you first started out as an illustrator, you weren't like this ace, you know, awesome illustrator. You it took you time to grow. And and I I don't know if that growth would would happen with someone who's kind of playing around with AI and or whatever, but any any any thoughts on that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

I there was one person in particular who uh I interviewed kind of on the on the side of like uh he was trying to argue a thoughtful use of AI, a Catholic case for the use of AI. And ultimately I I didn't agree with his conclusion, but what he said was, you know, people who are professionals, people are very good at this, they're not their jobs are not at stake. You know, it's the people who are mediocre at this whose jobs are at stake. And I remember thinking, like, gosh, what are you gonna say to like I what how would I say that to a version of myself when I was 17 years old? I got my first internship doing um graphic design work for uh the Ellis Island slash Statue of Liberty um National Park Museum, right? Um I was like, if if they had decided not to hire me for that position because my work was mediocre, I I wouldn't have gotten the start in in the in the field. Uh could AI at some I mean, do could AI have done what I did but more efficiently and and maybe better looking and quicker? Yeah, a hundred percent. But the process of my spending time learning about the museum, learning about um the different stories of immigrants and and and and and taking in the visual um and cultural kind of atmosphere of that place, and then translating that into my work, I think was incredibly important for me, and I think it was also helpful for the museum. And so what I'm worried about when when we're talking about this is that we might just cut off a generation of artists and musicians and creative people uh from beginning from the place of mediocrity, beginning from the place of ugliness, and then and saying, okay, well if they can just right, if they can just create something that looks aesthetically pleasing right away, then why go through the the difficulty of learning? And I my I maybe this is like sappy and and backward, but like the difficulty of learning is the best part, right? Like who I don't really like the the outcome is nice, but if I don't finish a painting, if I don't, if I don't uh finish an article, and maybe for you too, right? Like if a song isn't finished, at least there's something about the creation that uh still exists in you and exists in the in the community of people that you have worked with.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah, that's right, on. I've I have plenty of unfinished songs for the record. And you know, often just picking up the guitar and and playing for my wife is is is joy enough. You know, it's enough. And I've come to come to realize I don't need to be a rock star, you know. Like that's that's my that's my moment. Um all right, well that that's great. So I I um you know it is it's funny you you something I I thought of. I've been writing myself um about uh AI and art, and then and then along comes your article. I'm like, oh, this is like the perfect article. I'm so jealous. I don't I don't need to write mine anymore, but I'm I'm kind of going a different direction now, but it's it's similar. Uh it crosses some some threads. But one of the things um I've been thinking about, and you mentioned this in your article, is is like we didn't we didn't need AI to further undervalue artists.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

The race to the bottom, the race to the most convenient didn't begin with AI. Um that for a long time, in and in in fact, including many church organizations, um, parishes, schools, nonprofits have all had already had a kind of vision of creatives that um it's like, well, we're we just want the cheapest and the quickest. Right. I I I wrote in there, and this is this is something that has happened to me when I was a freelancer before I was a Jesuit, um, and and happened to some of my other friends who are illustrators and designers, right? Like you'll submit a pitch, you'll submit a sketch to to somebody, um, a client, and then and then you won't.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

I couldn't believe this. Yeah. Sorry? Yeah, I couldn't believe that when I read it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

No, exactly. And you won't hear from them, and then and then I'll I'll I had followed up. There's I won't name the particular um organization that did this to me. Um, but they say, Oh, yeah, well, we took your sketch and and we had somebody else do it for cheap. Or m you know, like I like is uh has played around with Photoshop and so he just did it, which is great, amazing. And also that's theft. That's labor theft. It sure is. Um, I understand that budgets are a constraint and all of these things, but would we do this kind of thing if the plumbing was broken in the church? Right? Would we would we look for the cheapest possible solution? Would we undercut in order to do this? Would we do this with um seminary education? Right? Would we do this with other dimensions of uh the the world in which we live as um as Catholics? And I are I would argue not that we would not do this. And so why why would we do this with artists? So I think it was kind of a perfect storm in some way, um with the advent of AI, that there was already this kind of demeanor or or um attitude within particularly nonprofits. That's that's what I worked for. I worked for nonprofits, I worked for the church, and saying, like, okay, well, this is just, you know, each artist is interchangeable. And so if we can get somebody to do it for cheap or for free, then why not?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, it's rough. So um well, thanks for sharing that honestly. So all right, so it's not all gloomy, though. There is some some hope. Uh where where are you at now as far as um looking at the other side of the coin? Like, is there I know the Pope has been very supportive of artists. He's he's um he recently met with with artists, and there's an article, a couple articles out there that uh where Pope Leo is basically saying the church needs artists, you know. And I I I kind of see this time as and and I believe he he he this is where where he's going is that let's see, the church, so here's a quote from from an article from The Holy Father said, the church wishes to renew its alliance with artists and cultural institutions. I do, I really do believe this can be a time of like, hey, like let's let's take a step back and let's look. What do artists bring to the table and how how can how can we go from here in a in a way that's that's healthy for for everyone? Do you have some hope? Do you have um are you are you um buoyed by the the writings of of Pope Leo?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Yeah. I I'm certain I'm certainly uh I feel supported by the Pope. I think I think it's wonderful too that this is all coming out in English as as he sort of intended, right? Like for the first time, um, we're kind of getting the English-speaking Catholic world is getting an English message from somebody who is a native speaker of English. It's in it's incredible. And so I think when he chooses his words, he's doing so from the perspective of of English-speaking people. And so when he says things like in Magnifica umanitas, the the duty to remain profoundly human. And when he's saying things like, I would like to renew the church's alliance with artists, I think these these these words have deep meaning for us. And it helps underscore, I think, what what hopefully what the church has been in um in its history, which is a supporter of the arts. Right. In the beginning of my article, I talk about how like we constantly had been defending the use of art and imagery in our churches. There have been periods of iconoclasm throughout history, and we said, no, that this is good, that God desires this for us to have imagery. And I think the Pope is reminding the church of that, and reminding the church not just that it's imagery on its own, but but that there are certain ways in which um the human person behind the human person who creates and has a has a hand in creating the image is also incredibly important. It's not just the finished product. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

And so to someone who says, like, all right, this is this is all good and well, but you know, I still have to get this flyer out tomorrow for my event. And I know you, and I love that you shared in your article, you shared some um some resources. I mean, there's a ton of resources out there, the Wikimedia Commons, and I I didn't know the Metropolitan Museum of Art has their collection available, National Gallery of Art in your article. You're right, I have 60,000 free high-resolution images. Um we in the in the diocese, we we uh you know are happy to share photographs from our our staff photography of our diocesan uh news website with people, and we also have an OSV subscription, and and they're okay with us using some you know Catholic imagery and and art in in flyers. Um so thank you first of all for sharing that. And and what would what would you say to someone who uh wants to wants to let AI go or maybe minimize the the use of AI but doesn't really exactly know where to go?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, I think Yeah, I very much sympathize and empathize with time crunch and budget crunch. Um uh it it is not lost on me how um how easy it would be just to prompt Chat GPT to make exactly the kind of thing that you you need without even thinking about it. I think I think for the kind of cash strapped or time strapped social media manager or intern or parasecretary, what I want to communicate to them is there might be a level of inconvenience that's introduced by not using AI. However, I think that there already are these wonderful resources that we have at our disposal, including the free images that I that that we have been talking about, right? That it's in it's it's very easy to find free um public domain images of the kinds of things that I think uh a parish bulletin would want, right? And maybe what I would say too is from the perspective of a parishioner, from the perspective of the young people that I work with, we need not create something new. We don't need yet another new um image of Saint Francis with the animals as I'm thinking about the uh the pet blessing. We can use the ones that we already have and present it in interesting and new ways, sure, right? Or encourage the young people or or artists in our community to create new images, but novelty does not equal um more attention or more engagement. We don't need to have AI create something that that that is unique to um this parish or this Catholic school or this organization. We can just use the images that we already have. What's more interesting, I think, is what what a parish or a school brings to the kind of interpretation or the kind of prayer or the kind of event that they're they want, you know, to to um to promote. To promote, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Well, and I think something that um people might take for granted is like, hey, you had this event last year and you remember when you took some photos of that event, like why not use that photo to promote this year's event? Right. Um and that's a that's a genuine, authentic way to you know do that. Um what else did I want to I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about your art, Angelo, which is so fascinating. I was checking out your Instagram the other day, and and you and you give you gave a great video uh presentation on how you created the artwork for the for your article that ran in America. And um Yeah, it was it was so intriguing. I I wonder what how do how would you describe your art or what what kind of illustrations do you do, or any anywhere you want anything you want to tell us about about the type of art that you create.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Thank you thank you for mentioning that. I I think maybe like a lot of young artists I have struggled to figure out a style. I think that there's a I'm putting that in scare quotes. Um the there's this idea that in order to to kind of make it as an artist, you have to you have to give something that is totally unique. And I think that's how we talk about the history of art anyway. Like, well, this person changed the game, you know? Um and so I think I've had a hard hard time trying to figure that out. And and what I've realized in my formation as a Jesuit is that I've had the opportunity to work with different communities and in different situations. And that I'm more interested in allowing the art that I do and make and create to come out of the kind of conversations and uh contexts of those communities. So for a little while, I was I was doing mostly um illustrations of the spiritual exercises when I was uh first becoming a Jesuit, right? And and the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius, particularly in its 30-day retreat format, was the way that I was learning to pray and the thing that Jesuits have in common among us, right? And so I was, I was, I was making my my own kind of imaginations and meditations into the art I was doing. And then I got to uh the Bronx, where I had studied philosophy, and and realized like so much of the art there was about photography and capturing the reality of a place that people often don't look at or avoid or or look down upon. And in this, in this era, it's interesting because part of my job as director of campus ministry is to promote our events and and what I'm realizing is I'm moving back into the digital space. I had been going into some of the more analog um and traditional forms of art. I'm but going back into the digital space because it does offer a level of convenience. It does offer a level of quickness. I can just draw something on my iPad and don't have to worry if I have the right colors in paint, right? And so I'm trying to merge those different things in the work that I'm doing and also recognize that it's so much related to um the problems that my students face all the time. So recently I made a um an image of Our Lady, uh, sorry, of um St. Francis Xavier Cabrini, who's a patron of immigrants, um, because so many of my students are either themselves migrants or their parents are migrants. I made um uh I had painted a um kind of in the style of a Byzantine icon, but a little bit updated, um, versions of Saint Peter, which is the patron of our university, and Saint Ignatius, the founder of the Jesuits, um, in the style as if as if they were students here at the university. And I actually had some students pose for that. And then they and then those were those paintings, the originals were given to Pope Leo and to um Father Sosa, who is the head of the Jesuits in Rome. Awesome. Um so so those are the kinds of things that I'm thinking about, right? Like I like like any of us, I don't have a ton of time to be, to be, to be engaging in these kinds of things. But I find that when I um when I can sense that there are things that my students are thinking about, or or um there's a need in in a kind of pastoral need for some visual to represent something, that's when I can say, okay, let me engage in this way. And maybe it's a traditional painting, maybe it's a flyer, maybe um it's an article, or maybe it's a digital painting. I I find that um kind of having um a big toolbox is is is the thing that I'm interested in now, even if there's not a distinctive style, again in air quotes.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

So that's great. So you're using art as a way to teach and communicate amongst amongst the students. That's beautiful. Um okay, so we're gonna check the show notes. We'll have a link to your Instagram and to the article that we've been discussing. And before I let you go, Angelo, um, part of uh what I'm trying to do with the Good News Workshop is to maybe have a takeaway or two for some folks that that are that are watching. And in the area of uh illustration and and design, are there are there any um maybe lessons you could impart to us or or something that comes to mind that's maybe uh you know a common uh mistake people make? Any any ideas from those lines?

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Yeah, I think along the lines that we have been talking about, um something I've been praying with, this has been an important part of my prayer recently, is the incarnation of Jesus. Ignatian spirituality, the spirituality of the Jesuits is so incarnational. It's so about Jesus coming into this world. But particularly I've been thinking a lot about Jesus as coming into our messiness um as humanity. And and there's something I think for me that is exciting about art as mess. And Pope Francis Um, who is a great hero of mine and certainly a champion of artists as well, talked about like he wants the young people to make a mess, to start a mess. And so, so I I kind of think about um the difference between how clean and sterile and and kind of artificial uh AI generated imagery is versus the messiness of human art. I don't mean that uh that anyone need create uh art that is intentionally blurry or messy. That's not I'm not saying that it should be stylistic or or descriptive, but but the process of art is messy. And I think that we can find in Jesus Christ um a companion in that, that he entered into our messiness, that the incarnation was a messy reality and a beautiful one, and an artistic one and a creative one. Um and so I think particularly if there are young people who are listening to this who who are so intimidated by uh their future as creatives um because of AI, I might say that the good news is that mess is not the enemy. That the good news that I experience is that mess is the way that we receive the very person of God uh into our humanity. And so if the path that that one follows as an artist or a creative is messy, then let it be so, you know, because Jesus knows what that mess is like and and is not afraid of it.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Angelo, I can't thank you enough for your for your time and for your brilliant article. You're also uh an amazing uh journalist and writer. Um so thanks again for for your time. And uh yeah, I'm sure I'll be seeing your artwork on Instagram and hopefully reading some more articles from you. So keep up the great work.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Yeah. It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

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